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"soul miner"
interview by Tony Herrington, the Wire - June 1997
Kirk Degiorgio describes himself as 'a soul boy, a casual', a product of suburban 'terrace culture'. Working under the name As One, he has been producing electronic dance music for over five years. In that time he has released records using other pseudonyms - Future/Past, Esoterik - but As One is the project which allows him to link personal roots with a highly evolved approach to digital synthesis.

For Kirk 'perverse modernism' describes the point at which the creative process disengages from the world, losing all meaning as it jettisons any emotional or functional 'baggage', adopting a pose of abtruse detatchment.

'I get angry when people deride soul music for being soulful,' he says. 'I don't know if its because I had a happy upbringing, but I don't relate to the punk ethic or angst. That's probably why I was into soul from such an early time. Soul for me was about losing your girlfriend, or good time music. It creases me up when the NME review a soul album and go on about the lyrics; the lyrics are irrelevant. For me it was all about 'Going To the Disco'.

There's an element of racism there as well. I did an interview with a French magazine and they said: you say you're into black music, but your music is very refined. Can't black music be refined? It's not overt racism, but people need to think about it and not make those kind of assumptions.'

Now aged 29, Kirk Degiorgio was born in London but grew up in Ipswich. When he was 11 an aunt gave him a copy of Funkadelic's One Nation Under A Groove. It was a pivotal moment. 'It's such a strange record to be into when you're that age, but it changed my life,' he says. 'Looking back I can see that P. Funk was black psychedelia'.

So his immersion in the realm of black electronic music began as a grass roots family affair. What did he hear in this fledgling music that had such a profound effect?

'The combination of the rhythms and the electronics; as far as electronic riffs go, Bernie Worrell blows away all Techno producers. I said to Carl (Craig); instead of working with Steve Hillage, why not work with Bernie Worrell? That's what I always wanted for Techno. That's why I'm glad drum 'n' bass came along; it blew away all the elements of Techno I wasn't relating to, it brought it back to a street culture. It really transcends race, but it brought a black element back to the music.'

Ipswich isn't the centre of any particular universe, perhaps, but in the early 80s Kirk was alert to the seismic shifts that were taking place in black music on the other side of the Atlantic.

'I remember when I heard 'Planet Rock' it freaked me out,' he says, describing a familiar epiphany. 'It was more of a shock hearing that than it was hearing anything to do with Techno. 'Planet Rock', then Cybertron's 'Clear'. It was the use of electronics, which I hadn't heard outside of P-Funk, the electronic basslines on Funkadelic stuff. This was taking it one step further. I wasn't aware of the Kraftwerk connection.

'After 'Looking For the Perfect Beat' I wrote to Tom Silverman,' he continues, Silverman being the ex-dance music journalist who founded the Tommy Boy label in 1982 in order to release Afrika Bambaataa's first revolutionary tracks. 'He gave me membership of the Future Beat Alliance, a T-shirt and signed things of Afrika Bambaataa. (He laughs at the memory) I was into it that much. In 83 (Man Parrish's) 'Hip Hop Be-Bop' really brought it on, then there was a great scene'.

Kirk started running a club night in Ipswich called Sweat, and DJed for local breakdance contests, meeting Ed Handley and Andy Turner, who would go on to work with Ken Downie as the Black Dog.

'Ed and Andy were part of a breakdance crew just outside Ipswich, near where John Peel lives. They used to come in and battle the Ipswich breakdance crews. Myself and a couple of other guys used to save up, we'd hire a couple of cars, come down to Groove Records (in London) and buy all the new electro stuff. This would be 83, 83; I think it had faded out by 85.

Breakdancing was still quite difficult then, so most people used to body-pop instead. I used to play things like 'The Smurf', Tyrone Brunson. It wasn't until later on, late 83/84 - I'm trying to get the dates right - that the rap thing started sneaking in, with The Cold Crush Brothers and Run DMC.'

Partly inspired by the release of 'The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash On the Wheels of Steel', and the emergence of homegrown slice 'n' dice DJ records such as Coldcut's 'Say Kids What Time Is It', he began experimenting with his own tracks. 'I only had one deck at home so I used to use the pause button on my tape deck and make these mix tapes, in 84/5, learning edits and stuff.'

The influence of the formative period can still be detected in his current music: the title track of his 1995 Celestial Soul album, for instance, has a backing track that is pure Electro synth-squelch, while 'Laetoli' and 'Ariois' source rhythms from half-forgotten 70s funk and jazz albums. While Flash and Coldcut would orchestrate this kind of mutable raw material into symphonic street corner collages, Degiorgio planes them into a series of electronic soul sonatas for edge-city cosmopolitans.

'I got into spotting names on label credits with disco, so I was always aware of DJ/producers,' he says, referring to 70s disco-era jocks such as Tee Scott, Larry Levan and Francois Kervorkian. 'They were all DJs who got into producing, so it felt natural to me when DJs started making records in the 80s, it had a long tradition.'

In the late 80s he moved back to London, working at Reckless Records in the West End, meeting members of Autocreation and Stereolab, blowing his wages on imported 12" singles from new and mysterious American electronic music labels like Metroplex, Transmat, Trax, Dance Mania: immersing himself in record shop culture. I've always been a collector, but because of working in a shop I had every House and Techno record that came out, all catalogued, no gaps. I used to love it in Reckless on a Saturday, it was the perfect education for me. It stimulates a lot of creativity, just hanging around record shops.'

In 1991 he travelled to Chicago on a record-buying trip. He had already met Derrick May in London, and had been invited to visit May at his home in Detroit.

'We drove over to Detroit from Chicago, knocked on his door, and Juan Atkins opens it,' he says still stunned by the memory of coming face-to-face with the producer responsible for Cybertron's 'Clear', Model 500's 'Night Drive Thru Babylon' and other defining texts of Midwest Electronica. 'They were impressed because we knew Cybertron; we hit it off straight away. he introduced us to everyone. Derrick was out of town, but Kevin Saunderson was next door in KMS, he'd just got all his money from Inner City, so he had a big studio. There was the Metroplex office, next door was the studio. Then Juan said there's an English guy living upstairs in Derrick's flat; we couldn't believe it.'

This was Matt Cogger, who would later release his own idiosyncratic Techno tracks under the name Neuropolitique.
'He was the original, the first person to go and seek those guys out,' says Kirk. 'We hooked up with him, he introduced us to more people, showed me around the Metroplex studio and that's when I thought, yep, I'm going to sell my collection when I get home, get a studio. I was totally inspired by it.'

The Metroplex complex was located on a street that was 'quite heavy in places', as Kirk puts it. Witnessing the conditions in which his heroes had to work forced him to reassess some received wisdoms of his own.

'I'd lived in London for a couple of years, but Ipswich isn't exactly good grounding to be prepared for some urban devastation like that. It altered the way I thought about the music. Detroit music for me was P-Funk and Motown. As I got into jazz, guys like Joe Henderson, Alice Coltrane, Yusef Lateef, Donald Byrd were all from Detroit, I believe. They go to college, move onto other cities, but for music like that to come out of a city there must be a deep emotional energy that the environment puts on people who live there. But because Detroit is a black city run by blacks, and it's failed, because of the government, perhaps, its almost as if the young middle-class blacks in Detroit, like Carl and Kenny (Larkin) have rejected black music in their youth and gone for European stuff. Carl used to listen to The Smiths, Flying Lizards, B-52s, it's well documented. Derrick is a great fan of Frankie Goes To Hollywood. His music is trying to have an intellectual escape from the environment, it's an intellectual pursuit. It's as if they've turned their backs on the black element in their city, because there was little to be proud of in terms of the environment, and inspired to European music. It's dodgy territory, but it's the only explanation I can think of.'

The first tracks Degiorgio produced were made using one drum machine, a primitive sampler, and a DX100 keyboard which had been left behind in London by Derrick May and which he shared with Matt Cogger. 'The drums are very minimal, very clean, hardly any effects, all very dry, a couple of layers of synth lines and a bassline,' is how he describes them now. 'I always thought I'd be able to learn electronic equipment. I'd never touched an instrument til I went into Black Dog's studio, before they'd released any records. Everything felt natural: drum machines, samplers. Derrick used to say it's best to just have a couple of pieces of kit and get to know them inside out, that's why I've only got a few bits of equipment even now, but those few pieces are top-of the-range.'

Via Black Dog, he started making connections with other musicians/producers who were beginning to emerge under the 'Intelligent Techno' banner, releasing tracks run on labels run by B12 and Rephlex, as well as Carl Craig's new Planet E imprint, and signing to the New Electronica label alongside Matt Cogger. When the GPR label rejected Black Dog's 'Nort Route' track he formed his own imprint, ART, in order to release it. ART subsequently became Op-Art, renamed as tribute to the 60s art movement headed by Bridget Riley and Victor Vasarely.

'I wish I'd lived in the 60s, it's my favourite era,' says Kirk. 'It really was a loose time; the art, the politics, the music, the fashion, the whole counter-culture. My favourite period for music is probably from 64-68: Wayne Shorter, Bobby Hutcherson, Joe Henderson, Andrew Hill, those classic Blue Note albums. I enter a different world when I hear those tracks.

'Blue Note was the label I looked up to when I formed my own label,' he continues. 'Everything they did was just perfect: their attitude about the way they made the covers, the sleeve art, the way they got the best heavyweight vinyl; the way they got Rudy Van Gelder to engineer. That's an example of the importance of engineering. Before Blue Note you couldn't really hear a cymbal on a jazz record; Rudy Van Gelder pioneered that whole idea of the importance of the recording.'
Although his DJ work has receded since the days of Electro, Kirk has recently released a mix album, Check One: Applied Rhythmic Technology, which serves as a personal manifesto and an attempt to reposition Techno in a continuum of 30 years of black science fiction, segueing tracks by Carl Craig, Stacy Pullen and the Jedi Knights into Herbie Hancock, Julien Priester and Bobby Lyle.

'I don't fit the standard requirements for a Techno producer' he says. So instead of discussing the relative merits of digital music hardware, we go on to talk about Early Music, its use of the Dorian and Lydian (as opposed to chromatic) scales, and the reappearence of those scales centuries later in the modal jazz of Miles Davis and Yusef Lateef. We swap record collectors' tales of Chicago warehouses full of stretch-sealed copies of impossibly rare albums released in the 70s, discuss the crucial presence, for a soul boy, of singers such as Dee Dee Bridgewater and Jean Carn on albums by Carlos Garnett and Pharoah Sanders; talk about the influence of obscure New York disco labels such as Queen Constance and Heavenly Star, both run by an infamous producer called Peter Brown, as well as Kirk's visits to the MOMA and Guggenheim museums in New York, and the trip he once made to the Middle East, which impressed upon him the importance of experiencing other cultures at first-hand.

'If you have the money, you owe it to yourself,' he says. 'Outside influences do have an effect, and I try and fit what I do in the studio into a broader picture'.




"all that jazz"
interview by Calvin Bush, Muzik - July 1997
In 1992, Kirk Degiorgio made the trip up to Sheffield because of two words. "Intelligent techno". Not that this was a phrase Degiorgio himself would ever have used, mind you. But these were formative times for the vanguard of Britain's electronic manipulators.

It was like a war out there. On one side you had the increasingly ubiquitous progressive house sound, bridging the divide between America's deeper house origins and this country's increasingly desperate thirst for insta-pleasure, low rent, high velocity thrills. On the other side, there was hardcore, the dark side of those heady rave days, which was pushing the beat (and, consequently, the dancers) to thresholds where pain and pleasure freely mingle.
The charts were filled with lame imitations of true club culture. An there was only one real alternative, a sound so radical and non-conformist some said you could only really appreciate it listening to it at home and not in the febrile delirium of the dancefloor.

"Intelligent techno". Well, what else could you call a sound which took its inspiration from Derrick, Carl, Juan and Kevin, but owed no debt to servile DJs? A sound fashioned by producers like B12, Aphex Twin and The Black Dog, that traversed the emotional spectrum, skirted the very borders of electronic music bringing back tales of euphoria and poignancy, chill-outs and wiggy funk, stars, planets and impossible futures.

As a producer, Degiorgio had already stated his claim at the forefront of this new movement with EPs like "Dance Intellect" on B12 and "Clinically Inclined" on his ART imprint. He'd hooked up with Carl Craig. He'd been invited to Detroit by Derrick May. And he'd teamed up with Rephlex to release intelligent techno's first truly definitive album, "The Philosophy Of Sound And Machine".

But as soon as he arrived at the Sheffield label's offices, he sensed something was wrong. He'd arrived inquisitive, possibly expecting the same album deal offer that already greeted most of the other artists on "The Philosophy..." but it didn't take long for him to realise this wasn't going to work. Talk soon turned to the history of this music. as far as the label were concerned, the roots of this sound lay in pallid white-boy electronic rock. In New Order, Depeche Mode, the Human League. In the earlier Germanic experimentalism of Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream.

Hang on, Kirk was thinking. What about Herbie Hancock, John Coltrane, Wayne Shorter or Bobby Hutcherson? What about all those black jazz legends who favoured avant-garde rhythms, abstract structures and unruly penetrative funk? All those heroes who'd inspired him to make music. Where did they fit in? Why weren't they mentioned? After all they were the real teachers.

The meeting didn't last long. Kirk never did get that deal. His future, quite possibly, was in the past. And he didn't care a jot.

AS FAR AS DEGIORGIO IS CONCERNED, TECHNO IS JAZZ. Not a shade of jazz, but the final destination of jazz history.

"I never saw techno as anything else but a continuation of black music", he says of the early Nineties when Detroit's first wave blew a quiet storm across the Atlantic. "I didn't think of it as any new kind of music. It was just that the technology and the sounds were different. That's all."

Arguing otherwise, you might as well try to convince historians that aliens built the pyramids. "Kraftwerk and George Clinton in an elevator" was Derrick May's now infamous description of techno. Ask Kirk which the first techno album was, however and he'll tell you a different story. He'll tell how jazz legend Herbie Hancock sat down with a battery of keyboards and sequences and made the album "Dedication". With tracks like "Nobu", a paean to space-age fantasies, "Dedication" was a galactic odyssey, a fantastic futuristic dream of machinery in random mode, a brave techno classic. And it was made in 1974.

"That stuff was so advanced in terms of electronics. There's this misconception that European electronic music was so far ahead of everything else at the time. I've got Joe Henderson records from the early Seventies that are way ahead. And with Frank Zappa in the Sixties and early seventies that was just amazing. But it all gets forgotten in the midst of that great myth that black people can't be innovative."

You think he must be mad? The Von Daniken of techno's history? Then check out Kirk Degiorgio's mix album, the superb "Checkone" on Extreme. Here is his personal theory processed through the turntables and mixer. Carl Craig, Jedi Knights, Photek and Stacey Pullen are deftly interspersed with some of his favourite jazz funk greats like Bobby Lyle, Joe Henderson and Julien Priester. And then, a truly revelatory moment, as "Nobu" itself melts imperceptibly into Black Dog's "Olivine". Twenty years apart, and you'd never know it. Sublime proof that the names may well have changed, but the songs and sounds remain the same.

Maybe its his distinctly alternative perspective on techno's history which has kept Degiorgio's name in the shadows when people talk about the most influential artists in Britain today. Black Dog, Aphex, B12. chances are you'd have them higher up your "those who broke the mould" list than Degiorgio and his many alter egos. It's all somewhat puzzling.
He's certainly done enough to merit the highest decorative orders from electronica's powers that be. For starters, look at the first few records on his ART (now Op Art) label. Plunge into New Electronica's three volumes of reissues, "Objets d'Art", and you'll find truly seminal moments by Carl Craig, Steve Pickton, B12 and, of course, Balil's heart-stopping classic, "Nort Route". All released at a time when putting out such abstract, way-out music was commercial suicide. it's a true labour of love.

Degiorgio has, in effect arrived at his sound today via a parallel universe compared with most of his contemporaries. He's always been, well, just that little bit different.

"Ipswich has a high percentage of ethnic minorities," he says of the town where he spent his childhood DJing from an early age. "The youth club where I used to play was in a pretty racist area. When I was 15 I got beaten up by the local idiots for playing 'nigger music'. But it was just as much social as musical. I was hanging around with black kids, I was more into their culture."

This teenage experience was mirrored when acid house arrived and most of today's heroes were firmly ensconced in the luvvie-dovey spirit of tunes-to-make-ya-hug- total-strangers. But you wouldn't have found Degiorgio down Shoom or Spectrum. Instead, the jazz flames burned brightly as he'd hit Gilles Peterson's Sunday sessions at Dingwalls in Camden. Or when he fancied a bit of techno or house, it would be the East End's hardest, darkest, most dangerous underground club The Dungeons, where the spirits of darkcore, abstract techno and breakbeat science would emerge, genie-like, every weekend.

It's these disparate influences that, when alchemised together in his studio, make Kirk Degiorgio's music such a unique experience. You can join the dots of the many influences, but you could never formulate the highly personalised touches of innovation that help his sound transcend the norm.

In the early days, it was Detroit, that cast its spell of Kirk Degiorgio. The radiance of its technological funk, its spirit of harmonised metal and emotion were all processed into the first Future Past, As One and Esoterik records. The way he sees it, that's what a musical apprenticeship is all about. Just like the jazz musicians of the old.
"I think all artists go through an initial period of imitation because you have to look up to someone. In jazz, I'd always been used to Miles Davis and John Coltrane copying Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker. It's the done thing to learn the ropes. So, yeah, I'll admit a period of imitation where the music I was looking up to was essentially Carl Craig and Derrick May. But I like to think that pretty quickly I made the natural process of finding my own sound.
And what a sound it's been. It was 1995's "Celestial Soul", his last album for New Electronica, that proved the turning point. Here, at last, you could hear why Degiorgio is Britain's answer to Craig. Not because of any great similarities of sound but more because of the way they work. Like Craig's 69 project, Degiorgio tears a hole in the curtain between break-driven jazz-funk and the bright optimism which gleams on the surface of the art of techno dance.
"I was becoming braver," he admits. "I didn't suddenly start makig different music, though, because even on 'Reflections', my first album, there's a track with a break loop on it. But 'Celestial Soul' was me exploring. It had the jazz elements, the funk breaks, even ballads. It was just a total mish-mash."

Last year's "The Message In Herbie's Shirts" on Clear further advanced that snatch-all vision. Listen to the 21st Century funk-out of "Queen Constance" and you can almost see some ephedrine-ODing fifties jazz band, all pursuing their own mad solos in gloriously chaotic harmony. Or take "Hyeres", a modern day piece of loungecore Latin that only Kruder & Dorfmeister could hope to emulate. The reason for the title?

"When Herbie Hancock started out on Blue Note in the Sixties, he's wearing all these quite ordinary crisp white shirts that look really cool. Then, as he starts developing, he begins wearing these wicked, plaid shirts. They're still quite minimal but he's clearly gaining in confidence. Then, in his space-funk period, he goes totally psychedelic. In the disco period, it's all totally brash, huge collars and the like. And now, it's just sitting-by-the-fire-with-slippers kind of shirts. So I don't even have to hear the music. Just show me Herbie's shirts and I'll tell you what kind of music he was making."

And, although it was actually recorded before "Herbie's shirts", the As One album, "The Art of Prophecy" is clearly from the same musical lineage. Challenging, experimental, twisted and deviant, percussive breaks from alien dimensions are smoothed out with Degiorgio's keen ear for deep, resonant tonal beauty. There's quasi-jungle, freestyle techno, off-kilter jazz...It's the stuff of musicologists' dreams. Incredible.

1997 will be Kirk Degiorgio's year. and chances are you might not even realise it. For starters, it's his music that graces the latest Adidas advert, the one with Prince Naseem. It's also Degiorgio whose Op Art label seem to be supplying Mo' Wax with half their acts. let's see. Autocreation? Signed to Mo' Wax. Stasis. Signed to Mo' Wax. Steve Paton aka 4th Wave? You get the picture. There's still more to come with "Herbie's Shirts" being reissued as a full-length album, complete with extra tracks, as "In With Their Arps And Moogs And Jazz And Things". "The Art Of Prophecy" is already being acclaimed as a classic.

The shadow man is gradually skulking into the limelight. Let's just hope he's got his eye-frazzlingly multi-coloured, wide-collared, big-buttoned tripped-out shirt to match. Quite simply, anything less and you might not get the message.

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